Anna Fraymovich
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INTERVIEW Transcript
Interviewee: ANNA FRAYMOVICH
Interviewer: Lawrence Boocker
Interview Date: February 17, 2020
Location: Troy, MI
Interview No.: 02.17.20-AF (audio digital file)
(Approximate total length 1 hour 8 minutes)
Transcription: Yousaidit (DS), Fiverr
Themes: Jewish Identity, Anti-Semitism, Immigration, Jewish Gentile Relations
Summary:
Anna Fraymovich was born in a little shtetl in Ukraine, but she did not grow up in the shtetl, she was raised in St. Petersburg (Leningrad). In the Jewish shtetl, synagogues did not exist, people would celebrate Shabbos in private houses. Her family spoke Yiddish. In the Soviet Union, anti Semitism was part of everyday life. The family was afraid to try to immigrate. Initially, she and her ex-husband did not leave Russia because her ex-husband’s family did not want them to leave. As antisemitism grew stronger in the Soviet Union and began to affect her children, they started the arduous process of leaving. People scared her because they said she’d be sweeping the streets in America. Many people and agencies coalesced to enable them: Foreigners, mostly American came to Russian synagogues and identified people who were seeking to leave, the addresses went to Israelis who invited them to come as family, the letters from Israelis allowed them to start the process. By applying to leave, they were stripped of citizenship, passports were confiscated, and they had no identification--the Denmark embassy acted as an intermediary for visas and smuggled their documents out of Russia through diplomatic couriers. There were two groups who helped, JOINT (Jewish Refugee Committee) shepherded them to Vienna and then to Rome where they boarded a plane for America, from Rome the group HIAS (Hebrew Immigrants Aid Society) provided them housing and assistance to enter America. On the application for the Refugee Assistance Program, it was noted that the United States doesn't discriminate against race or religion. And in her Russia passport, it was so clear. On the the passport it was written that I’m a Jew, in big letters. Here, nobody was asking me, who I am.
Example of proper citation/ attribution:
Boocker, L. (Interviewer) & Fraymovich, A. (Interviewee). (2020) Anna FraymovichJewish Journeys [Interview Transcript]. Retrieved from Jewish Journeys Oral History Collection of Congregation Shir Tikvah: https://shirtikvah.org/cstoralhistoryarchive
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00 silence]
Interviewer: Name of the interviewer is Larry Boocker. The name of the interviewee is Anna Fraymovich. Today's date is February 17th, 2020. We are recording in the library at Congregation Shir Tikvah in Troy, Michigan. And I've explained to you the purpose of the interview, that it will be a resource for other people and will be available all over the world. And you signed an agreement, allowing you to be interviewed. Is this correct?
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewer: Do I have your permission for the interview?
Interviewee: Yes, sir.
Interviewer: Okay, so let's start with where you were born and raised.
Interviewee: I was born in a little shtetl in Ukraine. And the reason for that was that my grandmother was there and my mom went to deliver a baby. I was the very first grand child in the family to go there. But I did not live there. I grew up in and actually I was raised in St. Petersburg.
Interviewer: Oh.
Interviewee: Yeah. It used to be named Leningrad. That's what my childhood was.
Interviewer: So this was during the Soviet era.
Interviewee: Correct.
Interviewer: Okay. So you don't have memories of what the shtetl life was like?
Interviewee: I do. This was during the summer of course. My mom took us-- to visit her mother, and summers, my sister and I we will spending in the shtetl and I have the most fond memories of the shtetl that actually, it was like Fiddler on the Roof.
Interviewer: So can you tell me a little bit about what Jewish life was like? Let say this would have been in like the 1950s?
Interviewee: Correct. Well, it still was a Jewish life. It was Jewish shtetl. And that they were, actually, living separately from Ukrainians also called goyem. And they had their lives of with a lot of traditions, I would say civil traditions. You know like loud, speaking women on the streets neighbors exchanging. But religious life was not allowed, and it wasn't allowed. not only religious life for Jews, for anybody. So it was a church, just for funeral, like church, we are talking about Ukrainian community. But synagogue was not existing. So still people would celebrate Sabbos and everything, but they will meet in the private houses. So private house, they will put some whatever they had. Sometimes just a hat, and they would go there to pray. My mother knew how to read in Hebrew so she actually was quite well in reading, writing. My grandfather was not, and so my grandmother was always open to prayer book, and tell my grandfather to open it up and read it.
Interviewer: Did anybody in your family speak Yiddish?
Interviewee Oh yes, they spoke Yiddish and unfortunately, they did not want to teach us Yiddish.
Interviewer: Okay. Did things change at all, as far as religious life after the death of Stalin, did the Soviet Union ease up
Interviewee: No. Did not change at all, it was forbidden, and forbidden was not only Judaism. That's how it was forbidden. I had a very very dear friend, and she was orthodox Russian, and we were friends. And we played where she lived, here was a door, that we didn't allow it to open. And at one time because you know how girls became friends, we were, she opened this door. And this door, the corner was Russian icons. It was a secret. So, when talking about Russian Orthodox in the synagogue, just to show that all religions. All of them were absolutely forbidden.
Interviewer: What about Jewish life in Leningrad?
Interviewee: Well, it was a synagogue and synagogue was beautiful. It's actually one of the most beautiful synagogues in Europe. And mostly, attendance the synagogues was the foreigners and elderly. I remember then I was over in the college, and friend of mine invited me to celebrate Simchas Torah. And we quickly went home because the cameras around. And people, students specifically, who were on camera were expelled from the colleges.
00:05:02
Interviewer: Did you receive any kind of Jewish education then?
Interviewee: No.
Interviewer: But you were certainly aware that your family was Jewish.
Interviewer: I absolutely was aware of them being Jewish, there were stories about our ancestors. There were stories about our lives, about poor girls, about everything. It wasn't just Jewish education in the formal way.
Interviewer: Did your family do things in secret then?
Interviewee: They did not.
Interviewer: Okay. So what did you think going back and forth between Leningrad and the shtetl for visit some of the cultural differences? What did you think about your family, your rural family?
Interviewer: It was a big difference because living in Leningrad, my friends were children from educated families in European way. And it was that life, life of museums, life of high music, what have you. Because the city by itself is a museum so you live there, absolutely. Going back to the shtetl, I did not feel it rural because my grandmother, she was a very avid reader. And she read a lot like [unintelligible 00:06:31] She was a big reader, so I didn't feel any deficiency. But it was funny because for example, I remember celebrations, say, it will be a weekend and the streets. So on one street, it would be a funeral coming, Jewish funeral. And so people will be carrying the body, and trying to put the shoulders back. And in another street, it would be a Ukrainian wedding coming and it would be dancing and everything in the shtetl. Everything goes out on the street, everybody knew each other. It's like life in any small town. Neighbors would chatter with each other, and it was very interesting relationship between Jewish people and their neighbors. Because they've lived for centuries, and at one point it was of course anti-Semitism. But at another point it was friendship, because they lived together they had gesheft together.
Interviewer: Gesheft?
Interviewee: You know what gesheft mean?
Interviewer: No
Interviewee: Business, gesheft together
So, it was this way. Another thing what happened after the revolution, actually, my dad was in cheder*(note:Jewish primary school), my dad, yeah, was in cheder, and his language was Yiddish, his primary language. But then he went to school, and he started speaking Russian.
Interviewer: How did the Jewish community and the shtetl survive the Nazi era?
Interviewee: Very hard. It was ghetto, they were lucky enough this community lucky because it was ghetto so they were just [unintelligible 00:08:40]. And ghetto was run by Romanians not by Germans, and Romanians were much softer. It was very hard, because my family had hard time, no food, no sheets, no nothing. On top of everything my grandmother was a very kind woman. And during the war, what happened was that their house was destroyed so they lived in the basement. It wasn't enough, and the neighbor's house. Not only the neighbor's house was destroyed, the neighbors were killed and left two orphans. My grandma took those kids on top of everything, her sister in another shtetl died. So my grandmother took her nephews, and this is how they lived. And they survived, my mom said, by making scarves. They were embroidering like pieces of fabric whatever they could at night. At night they made light, they were making light out of the potato. They will put half potato, make a hole in it with a little bit of oil and put it for a wrap. This was for the light. And another thing that they had the basement, and in the basement, for the summer, remember the war started in June, war, it was the 21st or 22nd. So people used to save salt and ice for the summer in their basement to preserve food. So, just before the war, my grandmother with a big barrel of salt, and this salt helped them to survive because they we're able to exchange the salt for some food. It was very hard.
00:10:11
Interviewer: So, why did you family decide to leave the Soviet Union and who decided?
Interviewee: Well, it was my ex-husband’s family, actually. My ex husband had a grandfather. And he was anti social, anti-Soviet element. His grandfather came from good educated family. He spoke in five or six languages, well educated, he was an accountant. I will tell you what kind of family it was. His two brothers were conductors. And one of the conductor, [Solomon Braslavsky] actually, was conductor in Vienna and he immigrated to Boston. And in Boston, he found the position of musical director in the synagogue. And the synagogue he spotted a little boy by the name [Lenny] And he started to teach this Lennie music. And he told his parents that Lennie has to know music and his parents said, "No, will be a doctor." He said no, he needs to learn music. This Lennie turned out to be Leonard Bernstein. So this kind of family my ex-husband came from, so this anti-Soviet grandfather, he was going to synagogue. Of course he spoke Yiddish whatever, and in the synagogue he was meeting foreigners. And every time when we were coming to visit him, particularly my ex husband who was his favorite grandson, he would be telling us, "Guys leave. Don't stay here."
Interviewer: You said your ex-husband. You were married at the time or was it--?
Interviewee: Yes, I was married at the time. Yeah, and so his grandfather, he was the initiator and actually pusher for this exit. He said he should not stay here. Then he was just brainwashing us in a good way. So he was the beginner of all this idea of leaving.
Interviewer: How did you feel about it?
Interviewee: Well, I did not know initially I was afraid. I was afraid, and it was scary. It was very scary, but I guess it was a pivot point in my life. In '79, we had our second child, a boy born. And then couple of months later, they started the war in Afghanistan, and I realized, "I can't stay here. I need to save this child."
Interviewer: So this was your primary concern? \
Interviewee: Not only. You see what happen when you live with anti semitism you adjust to them. It doesn't get better. It's like--
Interviewer: Did you feel the anti semitism in the Soviet Union at the time, which is largely professional restrictions or it with social as well everyday?
Interviewee: No. Everyday somebody, you know, if you stay in the line for example, something and say you will do the last one in the line who got this piece of meat or whatever. Then it will be big shouting, about those Jews, and they wouldn't even call it Jews. It was called as a zhid, it's like N word in black. So anti semitism was everywhere, but we knew that we lived with that, we grew up with that
Interviewer: But you were just at some point that just got too much?
Interviewee: It got too-- It was always too much. It was always too much. The whole thing was that we didn't know that the exit is there. We didn't know that.
00:15:07
Interviewer: That's true. I wanted to ask you about-- if I remember my history correctly, this is about the time when there was a lot of protests in the United States to allow Soviet Jews to leave.
Interviewee: Correct.
Interviewer: It was just getting started about then but you were not aware of that.
Interviewee: Of course I was very much aware of that. We were very much aware, we just didn't participate in those process. Because like everywhere somebody is active, somebody just quietly supportive. We did not participate. Did we suffer? Yes, we did.
Interviewer: Were you aware of the refuseniks as they were called at the time.
Interviewee: Yes, even more so--
Interviewer: What did you think? Did you admire them? Were you afraid?
How did you-- because you know it'd bring more suspicion upon you that these people seem disloyal.
Interviewee: Well that's what happens. The punishment was so big that we were just afraid. We were very, very with them. We felt for them. We had two families, and friends-- with, and one family, when their son was young man, he was actually cheated by KGB, the group of young Jews from Leningrad. They kind of, I don't know the details, but they were offered the flight from Leningrad to Israel somewhere. And it was faked flight, because when they came, they were all arrested, it was terrible. Because I knew this guy, [Luva Yagman] I knew him since he was teenager and now he was in a jail. It was very scary, and the Soviets really tried to make sure that-- better don't go there. You better don't come there because you also will be arrested just for the guy that's with them. And another family was sort of a mentor of my husband. His son also decided to immigrate at that time, when refuseniks, And this gentleman, he was quite old. He was famous geneticist; he was a very respectful person. He lost his position where he was teaching. And he was forced in order for his son not to be executed or whatever, to have more serious punishment. He wrote the article in the newspaper, in a way, like, "Oh my son, I don't know what happened to his brain. I just feel that this was Zionists who brainwashed him. He is actually a good guy." Can you imagine father writing that? So, it was there, but it was very, very scared. We were afraid.
Interviewer: So when your husband at the time, when his grandfather urged you to leave the country, you knew it would be a risky thing, yeah?
Interviewee: Yes, we knew that.
Interviewer: Okay, so what allowed you to overcome that fear? How did you decide to go ahead.
Interviewee: Well, eventually enough was enough. Eventually enough was enough and probably--
Interviewer: You and your husband were in agreement?
Interviewee: Yes. And probably the most important push were our children. Because we suffered with all this anti-Semitism and by the time, our daughter was already in school and she started getting those notes. And this little one was born in Afghanistan war and we knew that being Jewish, he will be drafted right away, and he would be killed there or whatever. And everything was getting so dark. The whole life in Russia. What I would like to say is that it's not just Jewish, the whole life, all the people became very hard in like an any time of any hardship. Of course, anti semitism is getting stronger. But it was, every day life. I will tell you how you adjust, how do you-- if you know there is no exit, you live. How people live in ghetto. They tried to live, they try to survive. And same thing was there, it's like prison, you live in the prison, or what do you do? You live every day. You try to survive.
Interviewer: But you didn't. You chose to leave the prison.
Interviewee: Yes, we did.
00:20:05
Interviewer: Before we get into the details of your leaving though. What did your respective families, your parents, your husband's parents, and more extended family, what did they think about your decision to leave?
Interviewee: Well first of all, this is our immigration, it was the second attempt. We wanted to leave in '79 and at that time, family was so much against that. They were so much-- "What do we want? We live through that and we have survived." And actually, it's probably because they grew up in a different time. Time was flowing, what was interesting was that before the war, it was very different anti-Semitism than before the revolution, it was huge.
Interviewer: Do you believe it was largely religiously based, the anti-Semitism?
Interviewee: Yes, it was, because if people would decide to convert, they would be accepted. To convert to--
Interviewer: Okay. It wasn't a racial thing, it was a religious thing.
Interviewee: Yes, it was. But it somehow flew through the racial too because the majority of Russians are white, in a way they have blue eyes and blonde hair and Jewish people are mostly Semitic. So it wasn't a really joke. "No, don't beat me up. I'm not Jew, I just look like one." So having curly hair, dark eyes was not good, and people were against that way, they humiliate you. But any way after the revolution, the national attention decreased and Jewish people, they just flew to the Universities. This is our way right. So Universities became open, so, my parents and my ex husband's parents, of course, they went to study. And during their time at the University, it was really-- nobody talked about the Jews and non Jews. It was ideal friendship communism, what have you. So, they didn't feel it, during their youth. But that’s what happened later and this is another story. So because there was no anti semitism, and they were quite bright on both sides. They were able to achieve excellent education. My father in-law he was a doctor, and through high position in his field. The father in-law was literature teacher in high school. My father was a civil engineer. So they went through that and what happened and by the time when we decided to emigrate, they actually held very good positions. And they felt that what we're doing, it just because we're just young or we just didn't went through enough. It was more than position. It was more than that.
Interviewer: So, you had to overcome your family and then the government's barriers that they were setting up.
Interviewee: But family problem was the strongest one, because what happened was that the minute you apply for immigration, they start punishing not only you, but your family. So this was kind of something that didn't apply right away and held still just to protect family.
Interviewee: So, actually, why those parents were so against immigration because they were lucky. They were just lucky. Like my father at the time of all these big repressions, he had assignment [unintelligible 00:24:24] So at the time when Stalin would be come in the night in taking Jews, he was not there. So he thought that he was just a nice guy, and that's what happens.
Interviewee: Okay stop. Okay so you we're telling me about your family's objection.
Interviewee: And I will tell you about mentality, when you live with the constant pain that you adjust to the pain. My father was the World War II veteran. He graduated from the college in middle of June, like everybody else and week later, he was drafted to the war. And he went through all the war from the Battle of Stalingrad, to the siege of Leningrad. And in Leningrad he was injured, this is how family ended up living up in Leningrad. And so he returned from the war injured decorated as a veteran. And what happened at that, I was only about 10-years-old, my dad coming home with face bloody. What happen? He was working on the street, decorated and injured. Of course, he didn’t wear his medals, but he really was a soldier in his heart, gave his health to the country. So, he was working on the street and some guy with a cane came to him and started yelling, "Look at me, I was injured at the war and you this dirty Jews you were sitting and hiding." And he smashed my dad through the face with the cane. And this didn't teach my dad that we have to leave.
00:25:55
Interviewer: They were so used to the anti-Semitism.
Interviewee: They were so used to the system. That I think the day and we'll get used to that too. That probably the day when we didn’t get called a name or whatever, was a good day or maybe unusual day. So it was, every single day, every time it was in the professional life. It's on and on and on so it was, every day. But, again, like any pain when it's a chronic pain, you know it's pain, you feel it, it doesn't go away. You adjust to that, you live with that, you carried on.
Interviewer: But you did decide to go despite your family reasons.
Interviewee: Yeah, it was very tough decision because it was kind of what you’re doing to us. Actually, they were not selfish people, they were not. They were worried about us. They just didn't understand that . What does it mean? To go where, to nowhere America. They just did not understand that. They did not… To them, it was like we were leaving to nowhere.
Interviewer: So when you decided to leave you decided to aim for America as opposed to Israel or France.
Interviewee: Yes, we decided that we decided that we will go to America, yeah .
Interviewer: Why was that?
Interviewee: Well, this is a question that somehow American Jews are asking me. Well, America has the symbol of freedom of opportunity and American Jews were visible. And it was so much kind of feeling of something very special about America. If we would be accepted .
Interviewees: Okay, so what was your plan?
Interviewee: What was our plan, our plan was first of all to live Russia, and hopefully to make America. And America, that was the plan. That's what our parents were telling us.
Interviewer: Was there a possibility to get on a plane in Leningrad and land in the United States?
Interviewee: No, Absolutely not. This is an important part that I'll like to talk about later. I think that was important about the plan. We were so much fed up with all this darkness and anti-Semitism and now children, children who started suffering from that it was-- For them, they were young, and it was new to them. So, like oh my goodness, it doesn't disappear and, it’s getting worse all this anti-semitic, anti-semitism around. So we decided that we're going to America. And people were telling us, "Do you know that you will be sweeping streets there? Your English is bad. There was very hard time to approve your diplomas" And you know what we decided, "So what? We'll be sweeping streets. It still will be better than living in Russia. This is how we were ready. We did not. If we will be able to turn back to professional life, we'll do that.
Interviewer: But you were doctor at the time?
Interviewer: We were both doctors and, but at that time we decided that if we would be able to prove our diplomas, it would be great. If not, and it was our destiny to sweep the streets. That’s fine, this was our determination.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what did you have to do to make this happen.?
Interviewer: Believe, it was a procedure-- first of all you have to have an invitation and that's the most important part of interview. How people help us to get through from there. The invitation should be the letter from Israel that somewhere somehow forgotten and discovered us and want us to unite with her. It was official letter with, actually, of the seal of Israel, not real, and that was with real people. Believe it or not real people who were sending us those letters, yes, from Israel.
Interviewer: From Israel.
00:30:13
Interviewee: So with this letter will need to go to the agency and apply for immigration, and this when it starts. So they will review your immigration status and they will decide whether you go or you'll become refuse-nik. At this time, when we decided to apply after we settled with the family it was a good time because it was-- at that time was Gorbachev, and it was 87 summer of 87 and Gorbachev was kind of playing this nice guy with Reagan and like we moved to new country. So that time actually it was open, not much but it was easier. So, we applied and we got the permission, fine and then it started. The permission is one but then, of course, they stripped us from everything we had. We had to leave our property with them, we could not take anything.
Interviewer: Let me go back a little bit though because you said that you first decided to leave in '79.
Interviewee: In '79, but we did not act. That's what happened. In 79 our parents, everybody was so much against that that we could not do anything.
Interviewer: So it took you years to overcome your family's reluctance.
Interviewee: Well it actually took less. But by the time we worked on them the door was closed. The door was closed to the point that there was no refuse-nik, no nothing. It was just closed, period. And how I know that there were real people in Israel because when we decided to leave, we got this invitation from Israel, we had it.
Interviewer: How did people in Israel know about you?
Interviewee: Well, that's what happening. Synagogues, it's number one, because foreigners would be coming to synagogues from all over, mostly Americans. And they were getting our addresses like grandfather, like grandfather of my ex husband, or maybe younger people. They would give them addresses—because those data will go to the west, because foreigners were not searched. So this how it would be, so we got the letter of invitation, and by the time the family can eventually decide that we can go took couple of months, the door was closed. No application, no nothing, we had to stay back. We had this letter. And then somehow news was starting that you know, it seems like they're allowing again but we need this letter. And you know what we did, we wrote to this person back in Israel, and few weeks later, we got another invitation from the same person, from Israel. I wish I would save this letter, a copy to tell this person, "Thank you." This was the beginning. Some Israelis--
Interviewer: What language were they writing in?
Interviewee: English.
Interviewer: It was in English.
Interviewee: Yeah, everything was in English. I think the seal [crosstalk]
Interviewer: But you chose, again, to aim for the United States rather than Israel. Was there any reason you were reluctant to go to Israel?
Interviewer: It wasn't reluctant. But you know America was so great, and the Jewish life in America was so great. Because we knew that when you come to America, we're not coming to a foreign country-- this is a country with Jews, I think, good. Not in the way of financial but you can practice, you can be Jew. So it's not like we were betraying Israel. We kind of talk to ourselves that if everything get fine, we would be healthy in Jewish community, whatever. So, we're not going to cut ourselves.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got some help from these letters, but you also had other help getting…
Interviewee: A lot. And we wouldn't be here.
That was the first step to open the door to so called [unintelligible 00:34:39] And without letter they don't start the process. Then process started, application, and one of the application was, I would like to go to Holocaust Museum. And to see what the Gestapo was doing to people. That's what they did to us.
During the process of application, they forced us to sign the petition that we, ourselves, ask to be stripped from Soviet Union citizenship. That reminds me very much of Gestapo signature. So when process went on, and this petition was granted that we asked to be stripped from the citizenship, they took away our passports. So here we became no citizenship, no ID, nobody, nobody. Now, next step was official way of immigration we'll be going to Israel.
00:35:37
Interviewer: Did you lose your jobs at this time.
Interviewee: Oh, that was interesting. No, I did not, somehow. I was quite okay, and my boss wanted me, and needed me because I ran a good department. And before I said that I would leave, she took me into office and said "What you're doing? Here you're a respectful person. You will be sweeping streets over there. Remove your application, stay. I will protect you." But it was kind of the case when she really needed me. Her husband just--
Interviewer: This was in the hospital.
Interviewee: It was in a big clinic. It was a big place. It doesn't matter. So it was funny. It was funny, but we decided to leave. So it was nice, I suppose that, was a nice compliment. I didn't expect that but it happened. Because you know what if somebody needs you, they need you. Anyway, so then the next step, came that we were granted the exit.
So, these are to exit Russia is visa to exit. You're going to exit Russia with that visa in exchange for the passport. So you give them passport. You'll give them-- they don't allow you-- in Russia, like here we have social security. In Russia we have, same thing, like, a little big book or something like that. When they record, where we work, days of work, same thing like Social Security. They didn't-- this had to be stay in a last place of work, and they should destroy it. How about that? So, no pension no nothing, they're destroying all your work history, so you never worked. And there were no computers then, so this was the only proof that you ever worked. You have to submit it, they will destroy it. Passports, I don't know what they did with it but they removed passports so nobody, no citizenship, nothing, and that with health care.
So, well, there is this visa to leave Russia, but you need to go into somewhere. Officially we're going to Israel. At that time, in 1987, Soviet Union did not have diplomatic relationship with Israel. And the diplomatic interest was represented by Denmark. So we had to go to the Denmark Embassy in that Israeli visa, and that when the miracle happened. The Israeli visa was actually for the ID. Never in my life after that, I saw any traveling visa that will have my full name, date of birth, my picture, passport. Those visas were our passport, and we actually were using them for a long time until we got green cards. They were our ID. So, Israel, thought about that. They did not want us to wander, as nobody without identity.
Next step, they took our identity away, no citizenship, no ID. It was not enough. They didn't allow us to take any documents, marriage certificates, diplomas, nothing, was not allowed to be taken. What to do? Denmark stepped in. So what happened was that when you go to the embassy, we took our whole documents originals to the interview with the consul, my consul. So, I will always remember that. I've gone into the room and there is a gentleman, very nice old gentleman, welcome whatever. And he was giving the visa for me and the family. And he said, "Okay your documents put them in this envelope," and he gives me manila envelope, "just don't seal it." Okay, so I put all the documents, everything, whatever we have all those in envelopes. And he said, "Put it in the corner."
It was quite the pile of these documents and there are some envelopes over there. My hands started shaking because I was giving all my documents. And he said, "Not to worry madam. Not to worry." And what happened was that our documents like documents of all other immigrants are smuggled with diplomatic mail to Israel to Denmark embassy in Israel. Every single page was preserved. When we came to America, we called this embassy, and they said, "Okay. And where you're at and we gave our America address. Okay." A week or so later, we're getting a huge envelope. Actually, somehow it was with American Eagle hand delivered mail with all these stamps of diplomats what ever it supposed to be delivered to our hands. Not a single page was lost. We have all our original birth certificate diplomas, everything. Can you imagine what would happen to us? People thought about that. People thought people knew that you cannot let people to Europe without ID, they can get lost. With this little ID--
00:41:32
Interviewer: Do you know why Denmark did this?
Interviewee: What did you say?
Interviewer: Do you know why Denmark--
Interviewee: Because it's Denmark. When the Nazi’s occupied Denmark and the king of Denmark with the yellow-- they were representing--
Interviewer: So, they were sympathetic to the plight of Jews, is that?
Interviewee: They've always been. They've always been, they always stand high because--you know how like Yad Vashem, they have a tree like they put the trees to the people who have helped Jews and there is a tree for Denmark.
Interviewer: Yes, the righteous Gentiles.
Interviewee: That's right. The righteous Gentiles. So that's what it was. So they did it, Because actually their function was just to represent Israel, and to give visa. They did more. They did much more. I'm thinking about the, again, I'm thinking about other immigrants who're suffering illegally with heavier.
Interviewer: You believe that this story should be more widely known that the country of Denmark deserves more credit for what they have done.
Interviewee: I think so.
Interviewer: Do you think they kept it kind of quiet?
Interviewee: Very much so because a lot of things that was done was only known in the community when you really wanted to immigrate, and only between us. And I don't think anybody would betray, because we wanted to leave. And actually, supposedly, somebody was deported, so what? Are they going to start searching diplomatic mail, when Gorbachev is smiling on TV? No way. They actually have you, they didn't care for that. They just wanted to make worse. And the idea was just to make our life as miserable as possible for leaving.
Interviewer: So do you think the Soviet Union knew what Denmark was doing? That was okay, as long as they didn't publicize it.
Interviewee: I don't know. That's right. It was okay as long as was no much publicity about that and actually with everybody. Just think about that this person, you know. Even here, even Gestapo they will at least give you the number. Even the Nazis would give you the number-- not so, they will give people the number. So by number you can trace to the documents, we didn't anything. But Israel thought about that, and we did not know.
Interviewer: So first off you were helped by American Jews, who found out who you were, and then by Israelis who wrote letters inviting you and then the government of Denmark who smuggled out your documents. Did you get help from other people in this?
Interviewee: And I will go to the American Jews even further. All this motion, all this movement about liberation of Soviet Jews, it was big. It was huge.
Interviewer: So the protest there were people protesting at the United Nations and places like this, it made a big difference.
Interviewee: It did. It was big. It was huge.
Interviewer: Did it make a big difference as far as the actions of the Soviet Union or big difference to you and people like you, knowing about this?
Interviewee: Of course, that was actually because whenever Gorbachev go in smiling with his wife, mother and wife and trying to play this new leader, whenever he would go there would be a question to do with the Jews. And he couldn't avoid this question. And so because luckily unluckily at that time a lot of politicians, big politicians were Jews. And they were asking this question. It wasn't-- not only from synagogues it's people who were powerful, powerful politician. They were senators, and like Sanders. Sanders also did a lot of things.
00:45:31
Interviewer: Wait. Are you talking about Bernie Sanders? He was active in the liberation of Russia Jews at the time?
Interviewee: Yes, he was. Correct, he was. So this was the whole thing that Gorbachev could not. It was a lot of things, not for love of Jews, but it was a lot of things to prove the new era that, you know, we opened the door for the Jews. So they just-- but this is how they opened it up.
Interviewer: So did that actually happen that you got on a plane in Soviet Union, then you landed in America?
Interviewee: No. How can you land in America if you don't have visa, you don't have-- you can't. So then, another help came. So the route was the following, or we actually bought tickets to Vienna. That was how it was to be. In Vienna, you went to Israel, there was two organizations. The whole world was helping. That's was at the whole story, how the whole world was helping us. There were two organizations that were helping us. We booked tickets and flew to Vienna on Sunday, November 15th, '87.
And we were met by representatives of Israel. They were past Russians, so they spoke normal Russian and said, "Okay, you're welcome. Where do they want to go, Israel, or other country? If you want to go to Israel please join this group there. The plane is waiting for you." Israeli arranged the plane. They knew the plane-- they were planes from two cities at that time. Definitely from two, I don't know if there are more. One from Moscow, one from St. Petersburg. They just booked. And so Israel plane was waiting for those planes and people were transported over there. They treated very nicely, and they were directly going to Israel.
Another group was waiting at the airport, and I think JOINT. You know the joint organization that helped Jews during the world war two.
Interviewer: Joint Refugee Committee, I think is the name, yes.*Note: The official name is “American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee” often shortened to “Joint Distribution Committee” or JDC. In Israel, it’s known as “The Joint”
Interviewee: Correct. And they stepped in Vienna. Because people were coming at the time when the door opened, I think at the time in '87 it was 8000 people immigrated and it was in a very condensed time, because the door was open sometime in August. So from August to December, 8000, people, can you imagine? They all were going to Vienna. And we did not live in a tent. We did not run like crazy. That's my heart goes to the refugees from war now. We all were met by people from Vienna, and we all were given decent shelter. Nice shelter, they put us in pensions. We were giving money for food. Not much but enough for food and transportation. And if anybody needed medical help, they will pay for this help.
Interviewer: This was the Joint Refugee Committee or the Israelis?
Interviewee: No, whenever you stay in Vienna, you in hands of Joint. And so Joint helped us out to be in Vienna and then we're waiting. I don't know why we were waiting but we're staying in Vienna for two weeks. And then the next way was Rome. And where to Rome was, because it was at the American consul in Rome, who would grant their entrance visa. And actually, it's not Visa. It has to be really a white card. It has to be document for the right to enter into America and work permit. That was important, not like for Mexicans, not like them. We belonged to different community; our community took care of us. They would make sure that we would entry America with proper documentation. Now safety, so Joint was taking care of our safety. So it was a big group of people who were coming from Vienna. There were two planes, and also people who're coming by train. So one day-- It was not one day. It was December, the first. They book for us like have a train, and put us on the train a lot of people --
Interviewer: Vienna to Rome
00:50:20
Interviewee: Now, at that time, it was a lot of motion, terrorist motion in the world. And JOINT was worried that if this big group of refugees, and-- You can see us, we were different. Even now whenever I appear people see that I am different. I still have this, not just accent, I look different. And this is a big group of refugees. Russian would comment that would be some act of terrorism, in Rome in their rail station, main rail station. So what they did, there were de-boarding us on different rail stations close to Rome, they were putting us on the buses and on those buses, around. They were transferring us to Rome to the hotels that were already booked. In this way, our entrance to Rome didn't look like a big crowd, small group--
Interviewer: You said you were worried about terrorist activity at the time.
Interviewee: No, they were worried.
Interviewer: They weren't worried about Italian people or about the immigration.
Interviewee: No, Italian--
Interviewer: It would be a target for terrorism.
Interviewee: So, can you imagine how much effort it take that not nobody was lost. No luggage was lost, how about that.
Interviewer: This is all the joint committee or do you have an appreciation for the-- Did Italian government was involved?
Interviewer: Probably but joint was, of course without the permission of Italian government, they wouldn't be able to function. But of course you have to pay for the tickets, you have to feed those people, you have to pay for the hotels. It's a lot of money and care. So Joint successfully brought us to Rome. Rome hotels are expensive. So after that, they gave some money and sent us to the village near the Rome, Ladispoli [unintelligible 00:52:38] and we were able to rent -- It was kind of economical thing, very small but whatever, we were able to rent.
But the more important thing was that-- The next thing is legal entrance to America, and that's what we as a people do. As a society, as a community, as an ethnic community, as a religious community, like nobody else does, nobody, nobody. Jewish community will not allow their brothers and sisters live in a tent. Jewish community will not allow their brothers and sister cross the country as illegal immigrants. It was a lot of work. So, what happened was that when we lived in Ladispoli there were a lot of American volunteers coming. And they were training us how to pass interview. It's important, we never did it. They were helping us how to fill out papers properly for the interview. How about that? We didn't know.
Interviewer: So you have learned a little English in the Soviet Union. But they helped you improve your English.
Interviewee: Well, how much can you improve in English in one month? No, no, it's a different story. Improvement of the English is a whole different story.
Interviewer: They're just telling you what the good answers are in an interview.
Interviewee: The good answers, because during the interview with the consul, there were translators. Well, Jewish people in the majority, Russian Jews, they are well educated group of people. And, they have of course, University, Professors, they were people who were very fluent in English, in many languages, not just in English. There were family with us in Rome that spoke few languages. They spoke Italian, to the waiter, whatever. So, they looked strange and they looked different as a bottom line, especially this group of our wave. It was group of professionals mostly, not all but mostly well educated people. And then this group of course you can find quite a few translators, good translators. And so the interview with Consul was with a translator, but still to fill out this paper. We did not know that. We didn't know about all this process. If nobody took care of us, I wouldn't know what would happen to us. Running in Europe, entering to America through some smugglers. Because when people are in need, there is always somebody who might take advantage of you. We were not taken advantage of.
00:55:18
Interviewer: Did you make it then from Rome to the United States?
Interviewee: Yeah. But this was another protection, and it was switching of care. So what happened was that they helped us to fill out the applications for the visa. So they paid, it had to be medical exam. You remember Ellis Island, how people were turned away right? So America didn't change their rules. Any immigrant. whatever status is legal, has to go through the medical exam. Okay, so we had chest X-ray, we had-- there's whatever this, we did this. So somebody had to do it, somebody had to pay for that. We all have these tests done, thousands, 8000 of us. Think about that. So anyway, we passed these test, consul approved us. I don't remember if we've got our papers, then, or the papers were giving us at JFK airport. But anyway, we were let go, and then Hias took charge, Joint HIAS, H- I- A- S, HIAS.
Interviewer: I'm not familiar with them.
Interviewee: Oh, it's a big Jewish organizations It's very important, Hebrew whatever, I don't remember.
Interviewer: Hebrew Immigrants Aid Society, something like that.
Interviewee: Yeah, so then joint transfer the service from Joint to HIAS. So HIAS bought us ticket for the plane and they actually booked almost the whole plane for us. And that was another thing that was dramatic. So, January 13, '88, our group-- again, leaving -- whenever we go with a big crowd we did not. We always go with a small group, not very small but group that will not draw any attention. You know, who cares, people on the bus. So, we were informed that our flight for America is on January 13th and we have to pack up ourselves and go with it. So we went to the airport in Rome, and they kind of directed us to some corner, in the corner. And at this airport in the corner had two stories.
So we were on the first story. And the second story was kind of balustrade or something like that balcony, huge balcony. And we saw the uniform people with semi-automatic weapon turning on us, and moving them back and forth. A woman started crying, we had some elderly women who thought that this was the execution. It reminded them-- because many of them live in--
Interviewer: In the Rome airport?
Interviewee: In the Rome airport. So it was an idea that would be execution, it was panic. And then our representative came and said, "This is a protection. This is a protection because it's airport, and everybody knows who you are, and there's a lot of you." Because it was a big plane. I don't know how many people this big plane can take. So they could not hide us as a small group. So they did better. They hired army, over there it was police and they raising this weapon, and they move this weapon. So there is no terrorist who would like to jump in the group, whatever. They did it right. And when we started boarding, so, okay, this cooled us down, people stopped crying. It was very uncomfortable. And as we were boarding to the plane, there was people staying with their automatic weapons, both sides or whatever, making sure that we were secure in the plane. How about that?
Can any other ethnic group tell story like that? How they were helped and secured from the whole evil in the world? And that what makes us great because nobody else does it.
Interviewer: I do have just a couple more questions I want to ask. I know that there's a lot more to tell. But first off I want to ask how you wound up in the Detroit area, after making it into the United States?
01:00:04
Interviewee: This is a big help before I came to America. Now, if you think I was bragging or how bright I was. No, I will not. Everything, every step, when I lived here in Detroit, I had somebody who would mentor me, who would be helping me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to do what I've done. Now, the help came the following. Being a Jew you know that we're the same and we're not the same. It was a Purple Gang in the Jews right? That's our-- Right, Right, it was a lot of Smile or whatever it was. Because you know
Interviewer: You're talking about Meyer Lansky. You're saying that there were Jewish criminals [as well we're not all great?] [crosstalk]
Interviewee: Correct. So what happened was that when we came, before we came, there were different Jewish communities, two Jewish communities who had open gate, and everybody could come in. It was New York, of course, and it was Los Angeles. Unfortunately though, in our group we had a lot of highly educated people speaking languages. And actually, it was interesting that during immigration, as a professionals we will continue to do our professional work. And I was employed as a doctor, under the license of Switzerland nurse. I was doing my little job with an [unintelligible 01:01:46] they were barbers, whatever. There were professionals, and they'll continue being professionals, but there were definitely criminals. And we saw them, they were stealing. And when we saw this group, we didn't like it. We didn't like it, we didn't want to blend with this group. We just didn't want to be with this group, this is not our crowd.
And we started looking for people we knew. And it happened that there were two classmates who immigrated to America before us, like in 80’s. And one was a lady, she was living and working here in Detroit, and the other was a gentleman. He was working and living in Chicago. So we called them, and the only thing we needed like Detroit didn't have open gate. Detroit needed the recommendation. So the Jewish community needed somebody to recommend that this person will not commit a crime, he's a decent person, he would not hear-- So, what happened that, of course they both say, "We would recommend it." And the recommendation from Detroit came before the recommendation from Chicago. Okay, so we decided to go to Detroit because community takes that and it has a good reputation. It has a good professional place, it fit us.
Interviewer: Okay. I wanted to ask just one more thing. And that's, you said that you didn't get much of a Jewish education, when you were young and weren't allowed to practice. And now here you are in the United States and now you're able to do whatever you want. And I was wondering what that experience was like learning about Jewish life. You're now a member of a synagogue. What was it like? Did you feel like you had to catching up to do?
Interviewee: Not exactly. This is how it goes. Religious education was forbidden, but St. Petersburg, the city of the art. What is art? It's illustration to the Bible. So a lot of stories that you know we discuss here-- I know from the Hermitage, all these stories about Joseph and his brothers and whatever. So a lot of stories from Torah, I knew I knew them very well. I just got education from different way. My grandmother, she actually kept kosher. So, you know, I remember that I was helping a lady for Seder, and I didn't know if I'm doing it right or wrong. And she was watching me and actually, I was doing it right. I didn't put the eggs right away in the dish. I was putting them in the cup first, and I precisely knew that this is milhik, this is fleshik..So, a lot of things that are embedded in me. I did not get it as education but I got it through the life, so it's not strange. I just wasn't formally educated, but I was always.
Interviewer: When you decided to live, you know, a Jewish life here you felt comfortable, like you fit right in?
Interviewee: It was my life. It was exactly was my life, I mean, the life we lived in the family, even my parents who were kind of, you know, the product of Soviet Union. There is no way you can have milk with food, with dinner, absolutely not. They were bother-- So, same thing, there is loads of things that, you know, you just carry on.
01:05:26
Interviewer: I said that was going to be the last question, but I do have to ask one more. And that is was America what you expected it to be? Were there surprises? Were there things that you did not expect?
Interviewee: Well, everybody's asking me about that. Well, I expected that about, the whole way in America was, it's like jumping to the future. I knew that it is about my fantasy was not enough. Life per se in America, I didn't see much changes because I was a working woman over there. So I came here and I was doing the same thing so, no difference. And yes, we did have-- people who were asking us if we knew what the refrigerator was. Yes we knew all that. Do we had gas stove? Yes we did. We had a lot of stuff, and again because we lived in big city. But it was more, it was different. I think what impressed me the most in America, it's, when we came, we needed to study and we decided we're not going to work, our work. We need to study because we need to pass those tests and both of us needed to pass the test. So we're getting a so called Refugee Assistance Program. And I remember that I was able to read English very well, and I understood it well. I could not speak well but reading and writing I was fine. And I remembered this application that-- it's application that you can apply for Refugee Assistance Program, and a little letters on the bottom that United States doesn't discriminate against race, religion. I read it once more, "No discrimination" printed there, right there.
And in Russia, in my passport, it was so clear. A close five handicapped and the fifth line of the passport it was written, that I’m a Jew, will damage you with no exceptions, big letters. Here, nobody was asking me, who I am. You're accepted by the government, and that's what impressed me most. The government openly right away, you came, you came legally, you're equal. That's what impressed me the most. The rest is like stores that I never-- I don't care for that. I never did.
Interviewer: This sounds like a perfect place to end. I want to thank you so much for sharing your story with me.
[01:08:05 End of Recorded Material]
