Nira Lev
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Interviewee: NIRA LEV
Interviewer: Dena Scher
Interview Date: May 28, 2020
DOB: January 29, 1941
Place of Birth: Tel Aviv, Israel
Location: Remote Zoom
Interview No.: 28.05.20-NL (audio digital file)
(Approximate total length 1 hour)
Transcription: Yousaidit (DS), Fiverr
Themes: Jewish Identity, Immigration, Observance, Upbringing
Summary:
Nira Lev’s parents came to Israel 1935 as very enthusiastic Zionists prepared to build a new country. Nira’s mother and one sister came from a “shtetl” in Poland, the rest of her mother’s family remained in Poland and Russia and died in the Holocaust. Her father’s family came from the same area and their identity was shaped by their anti-religion socialist beliefs which led them to emigrate to Israel. Some of the family was ultra-Orthodox and others were anti-religions. The family was united in its support of the state of Israel. She and her husband, Amos, married at ages 19 and they attended university and immigrated together to the Detroit area with their two young children. Nira speaks of her personal Jewish history being in two parts, before and after they came to America. As she says in her interview, In Israel, …., the only Judaism was Israel… never prayer, never keeping the rules, the synagogue was out of the question at all. In coming to Detroit, she only knew of Orthodox synagogues and had no knowledge of Conservative or Reform congregations. She was not familiar with prayer in synagogues. She states: When we went to the synagogue, … I felt like…. like a donkey in a succah. She started teaching Hebrew, including prayers and she felt concern that her beliefs were inconsistent with the prayers that she was teaching. But then she also came to feel that synagogue attendance, knowledge of Hebrew, and understanding of prayers keeps Judaism alive.
Example of proper citation/ attribution:
Scher, D. (Interviewer) & Lev, N. (Interviewee). (2020) Nira Lev: Jewish Journeys [Interview transcript]. Retrieved from Jewish Journeys Oral History Collection of Congregation Shir Tikvah: https://shirtikvah.org/cstoralhistoryarchive
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
[00:00 silence]
Interviewer: The name of the interviewer is Dena Scher, the name of the interviewee is Nira Lev, the date is May 28th, 2020. This is a remote interview, the interviewer is in Rochester Hills, and the interviewee is in Farmington Hills, Michigan. Nira, I previously talked with you about the goals and purposes of the Jewish Journeys oral history project.
And we have gone over the consent form. You understand that this will be a public audio interview that can be accessed through the Shir Tikvah congregation website. Is that correct?
Interviewee: Yes, no problem.
Interviewer: And do you give your consent?
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay, right, then let's get started. All right, so I have really been looking forward to this, there's so much I think that there is to talk about. So I'm going to try to start back with where your parents came from, and I know we've got a lot to cover because I want to know about your life in Israel.
I want to know about how you came to the U.S. I want to know about your life here. I want to know about your ideas about Judaism and religiosity, so that's a lot. So let's start with where you were born and when you were born.
Interviewee: I was born in Hadassah Hospital, and it was the only Hospital then in Tel-Aviv, I believe. January 29th, 1941. And Hadassah hospital is not far from Allenby Street; now I don't think it exists. The building is pretty old.
Interviewer: Okay. And how many children were there in your family?
Interviewee: Two children, me and my brother, who's now living in Israel married.
Interviewer: Okay, what's his name?
Interviewee: Yossi.
Interviewer: Older or younger brother?
Interviewee: Younger brother, the younger brother four years younger. He's named after one of my mother's youngest brothers who perished all in the Holocaust.
Interviewer: All right. So, let's hear about your mother and your father, where they came from.
Interviewee: My mother and father came very early; I think they came in 1935. They came to Israel long before the Holocaust was in the horizon. And they came as Zionists, very very….
Which means very enthusiastic Zionists, they didn't know each other. And each came in order to because they believed in the country, and they wanted to build a new country for the Jews.
Interviewer: Well, let's stop a minute, and maybe you could if you know, what was there about where they were living in their families that made each of them Zionists?
Interviewee: My mother was living in a little; in a Shtetl called the David Horodok, we had the whole book of memories about this Shtetl. And the shtetl is a very known shtetl because there is an organization of the survivors of the people of the Holocaust.
But she comes from an orthodox home, and she succeeded in convincing a sister of hers to go to Israel against the father and the mother's feelings. And another sister wanted very much to come; we have a postcard that eventually should go to Yad Vashem, I don't want to part from them. In the postcards, my aunt, my mother's sister, asks her to get a certificate, a permission from the British to come to Israel; otherwise, she will die.
So she was already, she knew already what happens to Jews in Poland. But they all died, my mother could never get the certificate for her. But she did succeed in bringing another sister; this sister also passed away not long ago.
And this sister, her younger sister she was five years younger, her name was Rachal (Rachel) and my mother always protected her, she was almost part of my family. But always, she was part of the family's life.
Interviewer: So she lived with you in Israel?
Interviewee: No, she didn't live with us, she lived in another place, and she married a man just because she needed to marry. She lived in Rehovot, which is a little town about a half-hour from Tel Aviv.
But she was always supported and helped in different ways; it's the whole story of memories not to say now. But she was always the important person; she was clearly one of the family.
05:00
Interviewer: And her name again was?
Interviewee: One example, I can give you only one example that we were already older, and I was a university graduate. I had to write a paper for her daughter; it was in a seminar for teachers because my mother told me that I have to write it on paper for her.
I was a good writer, and she wasn't. So it was so clear today I can't understand it, but at that time, anything that had to be done for her, my aunt (Rachel’s daughter), was fine, okay.
Interviewer: Okay, all right. So that's your mother's side. Your mother and a friend, a sister, decided their Orthodox family, the father did not want them to leave, but they did.
So they went out as adventurers to Israel, and because in the Orthodox family she grew up in Israel was very important, Zionism was in Israel, Zionism was important.
Interviewee: Yes. all of them. My mother came with a lot of other friends; they had a lot of friends from the same place.
Interviewer: Okay, so a whole group came?
Interviewee: And a lot of people from that high school spoke perfect Hebrews unbelievable. My father happened to do the same in his city, and he comes from a little place called Zsoibunov.
This was a place; I learnt a lot about it because when I read a novel by Amos Oz who is very known in Israel, he is a writer. He wrote a book about his life, a biographical book called A Story of Light and Darkness. And his mother came from exactly the same place as my father came.
Interviewer: Is this in Russia or Poland?
Interviewee: No, it's on the border between Russia or Poland. But it very hard to talk geography because today the geography is all messed up.
Interviewer: Yes. So in the Amos Oz book, it talks about
Interviewee: My mother came from a big family of eight, and this was an older family. My father came from a very socialist family. In other words, my grandfather knew nothing about religion, and he was anti-religion. I mean, all these people wanted to do a different life, so it was a socialist family.
And when my brother Yossi married an orthodox girl from Ballpark, we were very embarrassed because my father was asked to do a blessing over the bread. My father didn't even know what. My father was so ignorant about Jewish things, I cannot tell you, because their family was very poor Zionist, poor socialism.
And when my grandparents lived with us for many years, it was a big drama for me because there were always fights with my mother. My grandfather was a very controlling person, and only after he died, I heard form a lot of people that he was one of the leaders in his Shtetl. But we really, until today we really never liked him. He was very controlling. I must tell you.
Interviewer: Right. So, the controlling of grandfather was the one who was socialist, he was not Orthodox
Interviewee: Not at all, they were totally anti; it was later I knew about Jewish history.
Interviewer: So, did he come alone? Or a whole group came?
Interviewee: My father came with his family. I really don't know about the group. But it was I think already the fourth immigration, my husband Amos knows more about history. I cannot tell you, my father and mother met in Israel that I know.
Interviewer: That's where I want to go next, okay. So we know they came from different backgrounds, and they came to Israel about the same time. And how long were they there before they met?
Interviewee: I really don't know, I'm so sorry I don't know.
Interviewer: It's okay, we're going to get to your life soon.
Interviewee: But when we interview them, they were already in a situation that I never knew if what they tell us is really the truth or it's a fable. But I can tell you one thing, what they had in common was a big and this lasted until the day they died.
They had a big love and enthusiasm about Israel, and that's why they came. And my father came with his parents; my father was an only child. My grandmother was, what do you call it? She would help women to give birth.
Interviewer: A midwife.
10:14
Interviewee: A midwife, yes. My mother was a midwife, but she lost babies that she had and he was the only son.
He was very spoiled, that's what my mother told me, he was a very handsome guy. And he studied to be an engineer in Israel; everything was already in Israel.
Interviewer: Okay. So what did each family do? Well, the father's on the paternal side, what did he do when he got to Israel? And then let's go back to your mother who came with her sister, and what they did.
Interviewee: Yes. He worked different jobs, he worked I know in Yama Melach, which is the Dead Sea in a lot of heat, and that's where he developed an ulcer; he was not a well person.
And he always blamed the hard heat, in the that time nobody had air conditioning. Didn't know that there was an air conditioning, I think.
Interviewer: And then he went to school, he went to engineering?
Interviewee: He went to school. I don't know where, but he was an engineer, but I think he went to school already in Israel. Maybe I really don't know. But maybe in French, I'm so sorry because we never found out.
Interviewer: No, don't be sorry. What did your mother do when she came?
Interviewee: Yes, and I know one thing before I go to my mother. That my grandfather and grandmother lived with us, my mother also, and this was very common at the time. I think my mother took into our home. Although she lived with her in-laws, so my grandfather and grandmother live with us.
There was a woman called Nechama who came from Poland and was all alone. My mother invited her to stay with us, and she had a room, and eventually, my parents had to pay her in order to leave the place.
And this was a point; my home was a war zone in the sense of always fighting between my grandparents and my mom. Because they were very upset that she took this woman, the way I know she took her in because she told me, my mother told me that her mother said to her, you should take care of Nechama she was never married.
She was a very weird woman, and I think very weird. I just remember that she had typhoid and I couldn't play with anyone. My mother had to buy a gift for the doctor that came to visit her every day.
Interviewer: Very vague memories, yes. Well, how did they meet, how did your mother and father meet?
Interviewee: My father's mother met at a place called Kinneret, which is Israel's only lake in the north, and that's where she met him. I wish I could tell you more because they never talked about it.
But my mother said she fell in love with him. He was a very handsome guy and very smart. And I only know that he had parents, and his parents had a lot of debts and because of his debts, my mother had to work very hard to pay his debts, okay. So, my mother is the one that worked hard to pay his debt.
Interviewer: Where did your mother work at?
Interviewee: My mother was a teacher; I think she studied to be a teacher. I don’t know, but I think I know in Poland. And she taught kids, and in the afternoon, I know even where she taught kids. She had to stay to stay and take care of them because all the kids had lice in their heads, but there was a lice disease.
And she used to work very hard. And luckily, I think luckily, she had my grandmother who took care of us as we grew up. But my mom could not tolerate that situation. My mother was a very, what can I say? Not depressed, but she was a very put-down woman.
I mean, she never argued, and she never really rebelled against the situation. And my aunt told me, I was very close with my aunt Rachel, she told me that one time my mother left the home and told my father, she will not go back until he finds a place for his parents because the parents felt like the house is theirs.
I remember one thing for sure; I know that at that time we didn't have enough, a lot of food in the house. And so we would be given food, they were never put food on the plates on the table. And I know it was the same in Israel because my husband tells me the same.
But my mother would put on the plate a piece of meat and the piece of potato and other things. I love the meat more than other things.
My mother said you have to eat everything, you cannot just eat meat, little hamburger, I would not eat, and then I would go to my grandparent’s room, which was the best home in the house.
15:01
Interviewer: This is the grandparents on your father's side?
Interviewee: Yes, and they really pampered us. Today, I don't know why my mother tolerated it; I wouldn't tolerate it.
Interviewer: So you would go to your grandparents’ room?
Interviewee: They would always give me what I didn't really need. So my grandparents were really pampering, as I do now with my grandchildren, but I let my kids run their life. And I know that my mother suffered all her life until finally when I was really in a very, I think I was in high school in the last, I don't remember when.
Finally, my father got them an apartment because my grandfather kept saying that he was dying. Now I must tell you another thing that is very important in my upbringing. My grandfather was very poor socialism, and it's very hard to explain, but I will, in very short words, if I can.
Interviewer Sure.
Interviewee: There was two parties; one party was Mapai, which was the main governing party. Ben Gurion belonged there. My parents, these were a Socialist Party, but for them, the order of priority was Israelis, first. Jews are first and then socialism.
Then there was the more left-wing party called Malpam. Today they are all united. They had a lot.. and they believe that first of all, it's socialism.
So on the 1st of May, there was a big parade, and there was such hatred and such an argument between the two very similar parties that I think my grandfather and his part of the family that lives in a kibbutz in a shofet. What I do remember is that when Stalin finally died, I came to my grandfather's home, and I said haha, Stalin died.
We knew that he was poor Stalin, and now I want to tell you that Stalin's picture was hanging in this kibbutzim long after in Russia, he was already gone.
Interviewer: So their socialism was prime, that was…and Judaism
Interviewee: And today, when I read the history of Israel, I think that is why we got such a support from Russia for the state. You know the history; I don't want to go there.
Interviewer: Yes, so let's keep to your history, okay. So was this confusing to you as a child that there was one?
Interviewee: Very. I think it's not, maybe not confusing, but I think that this is what really created our political beliefs. I've always hated the people in the kibbutz. When they came on a visit, later on, they came to visit me here in America, they always were scolding us.
We were always looked down at as the capitalist because we didn't live in a kibbutz. We lived in Tel-Aviv. Today when I think about this capitalism, it's really funny. Because my mother in America, I'm a socialist
Interviewer: So your father did not choose to live on a kibbutz.
Interviewee: My father again, it's a long story, and I can’t take your time. My father was very much under his parents, even when he was a grandfather. I remember as a mother, a young mother, we came to visit him, and at that point, you know a very vague memories that…. I remember how I had a baby; my baby was crying; my older son didn't like to go to visit the grandpa. And I remember how I was shocked to see how they talked to my father as if he was a child because they had a lot of power over him and he used to go visit them three times a week.
My mother was always afraid that he came back for after a long good day's work. So there was always conflict in the house. When I say it's a war zone, I'm not exaggerating.
Interviewer: So what was it with you and your younger brother. So you were born, and he was born, it wasn't Israel yet when you were born. So tell me about your earliest memories of your childhood.
Interviewee: My earliest memories are, I don't remember anything. But I do remember that I was always afraid of war, and this is my earliest memories; another one is the fact that I have a grandparent that used to take care of me and pamper me.
And it was a time when my greatest fear and anxiety was losing them. I thought, what will my mother do, how will she cook. Because my grandmother used to take care of the house. Little did I know how my mother would love to have her own home, no matter what.
That's only later. The other thing I remember is war and war and war. I remember when we moved to another high apartment, we had to build a fortification. I won't go into it now; it's not important anymore. But at daytime, there was always war, and I was always afraid of war.
My mother was a real survivor in the sense that she had survivor's guilt, you know that means. Her whole family was killed by the Nazis; she couldn't bring the sister because although she has an uncle that was very important, they could not get the certificate. And I think that since I was a very little girl, I read about the Holocaust. My mother was a very intelligent woman, she was a teacher, and she really wanted me to know.
So I read books about the war of independence. The war of independence happened when I was six or seven; luckily, I didn't know what the….I grew up in a home; it was incredibly patriotic. Now I think it was a terrible blow for my parents when I left for America. They never told me this.
20:55
Interviewer: Yes. Well, give me an example of incredibly Israeli. You have flags?
Interviewee: Very good. And that's where my Jewish identity comes in, and I will like to tell you later. I remember walking with my mother; it was 56. This is a very clear memory; apparently, it was important for me.
We were walking; everything was dark because, at that time, they had to do a felah which means darkening everybody so that the airplanes will not see where to bomb us. And I told my mother how scared I was.
And what my mother told me, and I was very angry at her. Was that even if we die, today we die very proud, we are dying in our own country, and the Jewish nation will go on.
And I remember telling my mom I don't really care about anything if I have to die. So this was a big difference between me and my parents.
Interviewer: And that story tells it perfectly, thank you.
Interviewee: I don't want to tell anything, but this is my mom and my dad too. But although my dad didn't talk so much. My dad, I can tell you, and I don't thing that I wrote to them that I don't know in the beginning when we came to America there were no jobs in Israel.
This was a big depression all over the world, whatever it was the crisis of the oil crisis. I saw everybody; I saw a sign in America. I saw it with my own eyes. Kill the Jews and get the oil. I couldn't believe my eyes because my parents were always talking about anti-Semitism.
My parents always believed that in America, there will be a time when Hitler will come back. My parents never believed that shekanes?. My mom also told me about the time when the Germans were very close to Israel; I don't know if you know they are on whatever.
Anyway, there was a time where the Germans were in Egypt and Israel were sure, and the people in Israel there wasn't an Israel then; they were sure they were going to die.
My mom told me that she will stay; they decided to fight with forks and knives, not to go like …..And my mum told me even if I die here, I'll die here, and I won't leave the country.
Interviewer: So she was much affected by the Holocaust, and that went into her powerful feelings about that she would die fighting.
Interviewee: Exactly. And I think it was a lot of guilt that she ran away and that's why she took such care of her sister. She would go for a sister I can tell you; her sister was more important, I think..she was very in touch.
But I want to tell you another thing about my father, which is very important in this context. When I said that I'm not sure that I can come back, because after two years my husband couldn't get a job, there were no jobs all over.
My mom wrote me a letter, and then my father said it when I came that the love of the country should not depend on a job. Now when I remember this, I know that it helped my feelings. I would never go to Israel because I love Israel and without a job.
And then I felt, today I don't anymore, and I felt very inferior to my parents because I very egoistic. I would never put a country before my kids. I must go on to another thing though it comes much later.
When my son was accepted to Yale Law School, he was about 22. He finished U of M (Michigan), and he was accepted to Yale. He went to Israel, and lo and behold my father-in-law, may he rest in peace and may he be blessed for always, called me and said your son is going to join the army. My parents never shared it with me.
My mother was the most anxious person in the world, but Israeli [00:25:00.12] army apparently that's what my brother explained to me and my sister-in-law. I am still angry, and this is what you will see now in my world. They never told me that my son was going to join the army.
25:00
Interviewer: And he did?
Interviewee: He didn't, thank God. But this was a big thing between me and my parents. We want to tell you that this was kind of a breaking point. I realized at that point; I don't want now to stop the whole thing again. I realized that for them, the country was more important than me.
And they didn't think so; my father tried to convince me that not everybody dies, it's all baloney. Because my son was going to do the correction, tukun, for my sin of living. My brother tried to explain. Eventually, I talked to my son. I called my son that I don't want to go into the whole drama; this was the big drama in our life.
So I talked about it with my son, although I can be sure his whole career would be damaged if you did go to the army, you work for the government, he is very Democrat, I don't know, I don't want to bother.
My son, my little son later at a certain point, there was a friend of his who is one of the leaders of J. Street. He is the right hand of Benyamin, who is the leader. My son comes and tells me he was working for the American government.
And he was going to go to Israel to volunteer, to help in the election campaign, I won't go into all the things. This man convinced him, this friend of his, Jill. To go and work for Perez, to promote the Labor government. I can tell you what a fight we had to put with him.
So I think and my parents again, my parents, although they knew what it could do to him. If he left the government then and went to Israel when he gets permission, he's all career in the government would be finished. And so he was a very important what he did.
Interviewer: So you saw them meddling again?
Interviewee: Exactly. But my parents did not even have any qualms, you say. I put it to my mom later on when I came to Israel after that drama with my son. He didn't go, but he hated me for it. There was a big thing I won't go there. I came to Ann Arbor and he was so miserable, and he was so down, and he really gave in to me.
And if he gave him by the way, I have to thank my father-in-law forever. My father-in-law told him you cannot do it to your mom. My father-in-law was also a Zionist; I want to tell you they were all idealists. I think that my father-in-law was more down to earth than my mom.
Interviewer: Okay. I don't want to go too far in that direction.
Interviewee: No, I just want to tell you that's why I know that for my parents, it was number one. For me, I must tell you our life is number one; my kids are number one.
Interviewer: Let me ask you, though, to go back. I do have a very clear impression of your home life, and the wars between the various people. But what about outside the home? Tell me about your schooling, your friends.
Interviewee: At home everybody was metei?, which means labor Zionist. There was one kid I already met about my growing up. It was clear. Israel was very important; we used to go on trips. I always felt that I'm not like everybody else; I was too selfish.
Today, it is very commonly expressed. People say that they love themselves and their children. At that time, it was a no-no; I was the only one who felt deeply that I was not like everybody.
Interviewer: This is when you were 15?
Interviewee: All the time, no, it was since I was 10. All the schools now, everybody almost was labeled Zionist. And I must tell you another thing, there was one friend who belonged to the right and he died so many may he rest in peace. I was in love with him; I went with another girlfriend who also was in love with him.
We are talking ten years older; we live in…We went to his youth movement, his right-wing youth movement, and this was a secret. When our parents found out, it was just like now if I went to join ISIS, I can tell you. And then my parents met his parents; my parents knew that I was in love with the guy. My parents met his parents, and we finished elementary school, which means I was 13.
My aunty came home, and she told me you know. Finally, we met Amer’s parents. They are two a revisionist, revisionists meant people from the right, and they are nice people. And my mum was the most intelligent person.
Right now, my husband thinks the same about anybody that supports Trump is an idiot, and my mom was the same. But I want to tell you that my growing up, I always was very pro-socialism; I still am and lasted in it. In my home, always I thought about poor people about the government.
31:01 But I was very selfish. In other words, the selfishness is that I think I come first and the country next. The second thing is that I've never wanted the right-wing to take power, later it did happen, and I think all our fears are coming to a central one.
Amer, I mean this boy that I tell you, he was a wonderful guy, although he was right-wing. Wonderful, I love him. Still, he's a wonderful guy. But he told me if we ever get to power, we were maybe 30. The first thing we do, we are going to hang Ben Gurion in the middle of street, my god. And this you know is a child, and of course, nobody's thought about it. Ben Gurion was my hero.
And suddenly that's what they want to do. So for me, these people were an abomination, and I must admit, I don't tell anyone, but they'll still up. But today I feel the same; these are not my people.
Interviewer: Okay. I want to go back a moment about Judaism. So was there any, did you celebrate holidays?
Interviewee: All the time.
Interviewer: Okay. And how did God or the concept of God or spirit?
Interviewee: Never, I still don't believe in God.
Interviewer: So talk about that both when you were out of the home and when you were in the home. There were holidays?
Interviewee: When I told you about this, the thing it is very important in terms of Judaism. Because our Judaism is not a Judaism of land, the people that are right-wing are believing that God gave us the land.
I don't care if they give up any territory in order to have peace. So this is a very basic difference between our Judaism and the other Judaism.
Interviewer: So your sense of Judaism is not one of seeking prayer or believing in God, your Judaism is of culture or Israel?
Interviewee: Now, this is you're asking about things that they really never knew. We were always Jewish; we never doubted it. Our really Jewish identity was fostered in America because, in Israel, we did celebrate all holidays. But in Israel, if you asked me who I was, I would say without doubt. I’m an Israeli.
And we didn't like the subject, because always Jews was put down and Jews were always beaten and kicked out of lands. You know there is a joke, what are the Jewish holidays?
The Jews were successful, and then there was a bad ruler, and he wanted to kill them, and then we eat. So this is the joke, but it's not really a joke. So we celebrated all holidays, the holidays were very important.
Interviewer: Even Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.
Interviewee: Every holiday, Yom Kippur, however. The synagogue, we went to the synagogue last when I was four or five years old until I came to America. I tell you, I have to break my history into two parts before and after we came to America.
In Israel, me and all our friends still today, the only Judaism was Israel… never prayer, never keeping the rules, the synagogue was out of the question at all.
Interviewer: No bar mitzvah for your brother?
Interviewee: Yes, we had a bar mitzvah, but the bat mitzvah was about it. And the boys had bar mitzvah. Never, I never was in a synagogue for the boy's bar mitzvah; we only went to the party.
So the synagogue was something in my only experience with synagogue was during my brother's bar mitzvah. My experience and I must admit. Still, I think about these people like that, I will never admit it to my brother.
When my brother had a bar mitzvah, we came to the synagogue, my father at that time already; already, my grandparents lived in Ker Ata? my parents finally got them an apartment. My father went to bring my grandparents.
My brother was so ignorant that he told the people, you know in Israel there were only Orthodox synagogues. So the rabbi said where is your father, he said my father drove to bring my, went to bring my grandparents. And they found out that my father is driving. They canceled all the aliyot my father wanted to give aliyot, you know only to other people.
35:12 And he paid a lot of money for different aliyot, money that they didn't have; people thought he was at home. And they canceled everything, the money they will not give back, the money they took. But they didn't let anybody read from the Torah; they treated my parents as if they were guilty.
Because my father was driving, and this really remained with me my whole life. And then we came to home and my mother was very down, and my father was down, everybody was upset. And this is what I remember.
Interviewer: Sure, I understand. Now it came out of your family, and then how it did not gel or go along with the religious right. But I want to stop you a minute and ask you a question here.
So when people do have religion, besides a belief in God, they turn to prayer, and they turn to prayer for help. So I'm assuming you did not turn to prayer.
Interviewee: Never.
Interviewer: So what did you do, like when you were so scared of the war or anything?
Interviewee: Never. I will say please God help me, but not because I believed in him in difficult times. Only in difficult times when my son went in for operations. It's not really belief in God. Until we came to America, I want to tell you in Israel, not only did.
And what I'm telling you now is not just me, it's all a lot of things. I'm now less secular than others because I'm here. But in Israel, there was a lot of anger which is still existing now, because the Orthodox are ruining the country.
And their power is getting only stronger, but it was already like this when we were kids. So I tell you one example, and this is enough, during Pesach, there was no bread to be gotten, we used to buy bread ahead of time.
The freezers are very small; we used to keep bread in the house so that we have bread during Pesach, not matzah, so that is how secular we were, I didn't care at all. In ?, they used to close the streets.
And another thing that I do remember, my mother was really upset with me. Is when we went as little kids, there was a big synagogue in Tel Aviv. And we used to take sandwiches on Yom Kippur and eat there, in order to make them angry.
Now it was when we were little kids; my mom didn't allow me to do it. She said this is Jewish antisemitism. I think I thought about it; I thought about it when I thought our interview. This shows you how we treated Judaism because wrongly, we identified with the religious right.
Interviewer: Yes, okay. So let's move on to how you met your husband, and what was that time period in your life like?
Interviewee: I met my husband in high school, and he was the genius of the class. And he helped me in math, and I never thought, I never in my wildest dreams would think that he will be my husband. And then we both met again, we both met in the I think it was ninth grade.
At our school studied Arabic, I was in the best high school in Tel Aviv, and he was the best student in the class, I think in the whole class, but in all the classes. But we met studying French, and I think I never talked to him about it. I think he started looking at me as a serious person when suddenly he saw that I was willing to come study French.
He was studying French, so the first thing was we were 15. No, we were 13 and a half, we were 14 and 15. My mother told me you will forget even that he was your boyfriend because he bought me a ring and this agreement. I don't want to go there.
He bought me a gift as a ring when I was 15; I still have it. So we were together for many years, but when we got married, then they had to go to the Mikvah because they told that if I don't go to the Mikvah, the rabbi can ask me for it. I was so mad, I can tell you.
Interviewer: Who asked you to go to the mikvah? Your husband?
Interviewee: No, the rabbi. In Israel, you cannot marry, even today, an Orthodox wedding. And you know a lot of people don't get married. Like I have a nephew whose mother comes from Young Israel in Bet Yaacob, he never got married; they have three kids.
Because they don't want a Rabbi around them, and they don't want to go to to a rabbi and spend all that money. So people are against the Rabbi. I was also against it, that time we didn't have this protect, but I was [00:40:00.04] very upset to go to the Mikvah.
40:01
I can tell you later on about Judaism; I have two boys, both have brit milah. I still don't like the ceremony. Now there is a big movement in Israel; I wouldn't join it just because I don't like not to be like everybody.
There is a big movement against circumcision, yes. And I know a person here whose parents are very active in the synagogue, and she never circumcised her boys.
Interviewer: This is the first time I'm hearing of that.
Interviewee: Very interesting, it's very interesting, but I was not really Jewish in the sense that Americans are. Today if you ask me what am I, I will say I'm a Jewish Israeli woman.
Interviewer: All right, well, let's get to that. But first, let's get to the wedding. Okay, so you did not go to the mikvah? And did not have a ceremony?
Interviewee: Oh no, I did. I was told if I don't go to the mikvah, the Rabbi will not marry us. Eventually, the Rabbi did not ask about it. But we had the Rabbi; our wedding was just like any wedding.
Interviewer: In a synagogue or in a hall?
Interviewee: No, never. In a hall, nobody married in a synagogue, nobody that I know, yes.
Interviewer: Okay. But also, there was a chuppah
Interviewee: Chuppah yes, but it was all by the orthodox, and I remember that I, I want to tell you I don't like to talk about it, it's not nice. But under the chuppah, I thought, why does the Rabbi wear the same dirty suit and couldn't even bother to wear a cleaner one. That's just to tell you, and I was standing and trying not to laugh out loud when I was receiving the blessing. So, I was 19 and a half, I didn't know anything.
Interviewer: And how old was Amos? about the same?
Interviewee: Also 19, we're the same age.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what happens after you get married? You finished high school?
Interviewee: We go to Jerusalem and we studied at the university. And again it's studies, and it's Israel, and it's the university, I cannot tell you that Judaism was very important in my life.
Interviewer: Okay. What did you study?
Interviewee: I studied English Literature, and English and Arabic, Arabic language, and Literature. And we had a religious woman who taught us the Arabic. And she asked this is as I remember, the first few lessons we started learning about mosques because she told us about Muslim religion.
I love the religion; by the way, I love learning about it. So, she asked how many of you have never been in a synagogue? You can't imagine how many hands went up. And then she said before I start showing you videos of mosques, I really want you to go to the synagogue.
And nobody, I don't remember that I ever went, because I didn't care about the synagogue. So, if we joined the synagogue now, by the way, we would go to Temple Israel, we will go to a Reform synagogue.
Interviewer: All right. So, Amos, I guess was studying engineering at that time. What was your husband studying?
Interviewee: He was studying physics.
Interviewer: Physics, okay.
Interviewee: Amos’s background is different, and I don't know it.
Interviewer: Yes, I don't want to go there. Okay, what happens after you got your degrees, both of you?
Interviewee: We got the degrees; we were married very young, we got married before we came to the university. Amos was in what is called a unit that he had the delayed army service because he was a very good student.
So, they let him first do his Ph.D. in physics, and only then he went to the army. So we had a baby, and the baby had a brit. And again, I hated every single minute of it. I can't tell you, and we had a big argument with my in-laws because they wanted the big party.
To me, it was something that you have to go on with, and I hated it; they hated still. I hate still, anyway.
Interviewer: So you had a baby.
Interviewee: I had everything done according in Israel; you accept it because this is part of the rules. I'm not against the laws; I'm not a person like other people are rebelling now. I told you there is a whole movement against brit…My nephew didn't ever get married; then another, other friends never got married.
Interviewer: So how many children did you have? And were they all born in Israel? Were both of them born in Israel?
Interviewee: We had two kids, both are born in Israel, both had a brit.
Interviewer: Yes. And were you working when you got out?
Interviewee: I always was working as a teacher in high school. I didn't like the work because I didn't like the discipline. When we came to America, I started teaching adults.
45:00
Interviewer: Okay. So are we then at the point of your transition to?
Interviewee: The transition started in America.
Interviewer: No, but how did you get to America?
Interviewee: How did I get to America? My husband had to come here because everybody that finishes a Ph.D. in Israel has to go for what they called postdoctoral position. A post-doctoral position they don't want you to do in Israel because Israel was very small and had very little aid, still small. But now there are more universities. I think that now also Israel is going forward because otherwise, they're not. So Amos was looking for a job; it was very hard; it was a fairly difficult time here. Eventually, we got offer in Detroit and in Canada in McGill University.
And in a place in Texas, and we chose Detroit, here is where the transition is. People told us that there is a wonderful Jewish community.
Interviewer: Okay.
Interviewee: Who would believe that we will choose a place because the man who was a guide in the Ph.D., like mentor.
Interviewer: Yes, mentors.
Interviewee: The mentor, who was a Jew. And for me, it was very important. When we came here, somehow, my friends were Israelis or Jewish.
Interviewer: Or Jewish?
Interviewee: Or Jewish. And little by little, first of all, we went to a synagogue right away when I came to America.
Interviewer: Did you have any idea of how much synagogue was part of the Jewish experience?
Interviewee: Not at all, I was totally ignorant. I was like all Israelis now; I don't want to tell you even how. So, I was totally ignorant, so ignorant that a man that works with Amos at Wayne State invited him to come to the shul, and I didn't think I would take it.
But I looked out, it came a week before Rosh Hashanah. We came in the end of August. I looked around, and all the cars were going, and suddenly I didn't feel a holiday.
So, I told Amos I really want to take the kids and go to synagogue. They were 2 ½ and 6 ½ years. We came to Beth Shalom. I was sure it's not the synagogue because there were cars out.
Interviewer: Oh because there were cars in the parking lot?
Interviewee: We found a conservative movement, nothing at all..isn't it interesting.
Interviewer: So, wait a minute, wait just a second. So you knew Orthodox that was the only one you knew. You didn't know there was conservative, and you didn't know there was reform?
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Interviewee: I didn't remember that I ever knew it. Now everybody knows because anyway. So we went to the synagogue, and then I felt like they say like a donkey in a succah. I didn't know where to stand or where to sit. And I talk to Rabbi Nelson, now I know his wife very well, she is a friend of mine.
But I talked to Rabbi Nelson, who was later the Rabbi, I told him look, we're Israelis, we know nothing. I really apologize. I'm very direct. And he told me, don't worry, and this is all Israelis. At that time, slechim sent from Israel.
Interviewer: Wait, there's a word I'm not sure of, Serechim. What does that mean?
Interviewee: There is a man that is sent, means a person, an emissary. There were people that were sent from Israel to the Diaspora to teach about Israel. They were invited to synagogues. They didn't know when to stand when to sit, they didn't know anything, and they're all secular.
Interviewer: And they knew Hebrew as a language you speak to each other.
Interviewee: About the history. We know a lot of stuff that many Americans don't; I didn't know anything about it. And then I started teaching because we were very, very poor.
Interviewer: You were teaching for?
Interviewee: I started at a Jewish school, of course. At a Jewish school, it was right near my home.
Interviewer: And you were teaching Hebrew?
Interviewee: Hebrew. Not just Hebrew, but Hebrew and prayer. Mr. Noble who spoke Hebrew fluently because he came from Poland from the same school that my mom. And he asked me, and I told him directly. And I said look, I know nothing about prayer, tell me. Because I cannot go into a class and teach them prayer just the reading, they want to know.
Something about it: I never thought I would do in my life when I came to America; I didn't know anything. And to make a long story short, he was very impressed because I told him directly, that's my character, by the way.
Instead of playing the game, he said you're the first Israeli that tells me so, I'm very happy that you do. And I used to come earlier before school begins to learn how to teach prayer, to learn both the prayers with them, to know what to tell them.
He told me all they need to know is two ways; I could never accept it; I still don't. I think they should know something about what they're reading when they get it
50:00
Interviewer: So, did you dislike that? Did you dislike having to teach them prayer?
Interviewee: No, but I thought that I need to know what it is. Not only that, at a certain point, I can't tell you exactly the time. I realized that it's more important to teach American kids about Judaism than to teach them Hebrew. Because what can they know about Hebrew, they learn nothing. It's more important to learn about Judaism; this is a very unusual point of view.
Interviewer: Yes. I'm trying to figure out how with your sense of Judaism and not including prayer and belief in God. But the prayers, what you were teaching them were all about beliefs and things that you didn't share.
Interviewee: Not really. We did not have to teach them anything except for reading. I hated this job so much so I didn't want to continue; I did it only because I had to. I want to tell you that although we it did not have money at all.
We were so poor; I won't even tell you how poor we were. I almost got $10,000; everybody else was making 20 just to give you an idea. I couldn't do a lot of things that my friends, my Israeli friends were doing. So, I got a job at Beth Shalom, and they told me that I have to teach after one time when the kids are behaving horribly.
I decided I really don't want to, that I don't need the money, I told my husband I don't want to be a prostitute. This is selling myself for money, and I won't do it because the kids didn't care at all. It wasn't any Judaism; it was nothing.
Interviewer: That was preparation for bar mitzvah, that's all it was. So you didn't know what it meant, yes. That's a tradition that I came from. So, then what happens? But then you come on to have a very wonderful career that everybody knows you around. Everyone knows Nira Lev
Interviewer: Now, if you analyze it, I thought about it before we met. I think that little by little, it's a very gradual development. First of all, in my classes, I have people that are completely secular and completely orthodox, I mean very orthodox.
And I think that little by little, I was very influenced by those that are ultra Orthodox and I learned to accept opinion, that's the first thing. So, I learned to respect it. I remember that my friends were very upset with me, but they had a clash with a lot of people that were very orthodox.
I stopped wearing pants to teach them, not because I don't believe in God at all, I don't believe now too. I have a lack of respect for people that keep Jewish prayers. And today, I really feel that without Judaism, without having the prayer in all the synagogue in America, there would be nothing.
Interviewer: You came to see that, you to being totally puzzled by it, and then not wanting to teach in that way. And then a bit later, you came to know some people who were very religious and that started to make you rethink, is that correct?
Interviewee: Yes. In America. I want to tell you in one of my classes, a woman who goes to Adat Shalom, which is a very conservative synagogue asked me where are you going for services and I didn't want to tell her that I go nowhere.
So I said to her, Dina, her name is Dina. I said Dina; I really don't want to discuss it. And she said she was so, her face was so scared as if I don't know what. And she said, don't tell me that you don't go to any synagogue. I couldn't tell her that we don't go.
She says you can come, then right away she said I will invite you to our synagogue, you don't have to buy tickets. She thought that it was because of the tickets. And I must tell you that last year, the first time everybody Yom Kippur goes to services, goes to say the prayer. I forgot now the name of the prayer, can tell you what it means.
Interviewer: Kol Nidre? Was it Kol Nidre?
55:00
Interviewee: Kol Nidre, everybody goes to Kol Nidre. We were sitting, and I said, well, let's look at the computer. Let's look at the computer, and we held a prayer.
I told my husband I said I felt weird because I couldn't tell anybody that we are not going, for me, it's an evening at home, I don't want to waste my time. Then a year later, we gave a lot of money to the Downtown Synagogue. I like the people there, and we went to the Downtown Synagogue the first and the last time.
There was no air conditioning; I know it sound horrible. I'm telling you the truth. Prayers looked like everything else. There were a lot of people; it was very exciting the minute you come.
And then I was suffering all the time because they gave us some little fan. I looked at my husband; he felt the same. So first we never go there, if we do join and then you invited us for Yom Kippur.
Interviewer: Did I, okay.
Interviewee: Yes. You invited us for break the fast. It was very nice because you invited another family that were Muslim that don't even remember.
Interviewer: Oh, now, I do.
Interviewee: It was very nice. But the synagogue experience, I was willing to sit there because it was Shir Tikvah, and they weren't really Orthodox, and it was not too long, and I really enjoyed it.
Now since then, I went a few times to a Conservative shul or to a Reform shul. We have good friends who are at Kol Ami, which is reform. I love the prayers more; I liked Temple Israel, you know why? Because it's an hour.
And it was, because they sing and they say the prayer, and I don't know how many of them believe that I love the prayers. Now the big change, the biggest change came sometime, my boss asked me, I had to be [Inaudible 00:57:08.20] I was in charge of teaching Hebrew to all the teachers in the community.
I was now in charge of the teacher’s education in the Federation. My boss was a very Orthodox man, a very right-wing man, but we were very good friends. I think I learned a lot from him. He told me that I have to give workshops on teaching prayer.
Interviewer: Here, it comes again.
Interviewee: I said I know nothing, and he said, so you who will learn. And I cannot tell you how now I learnt a lot. My students will also, Orthodox women who know nothing about what it meant. I learned it because I decided I want to teach the teachers.
How to teach kids who are like us, a kid don't know anything, they don't believe and you can teach them a lot. So I went first of all to a conference of Hebrew teachers, and there was five days of studying the Shema with a man who was a wonderful, in Philadelphia, I can't remember the name.
The man was a very known scholar, and he wasn’t a religious man, he was a conservative, and or he was reformed. And I learned now; I now know a lot about Jewish values. A lot of my students will swear to you that I'm Orthodox, and I believe in God, which is not true, I don't tell them I don't believe in God.
At this point, my Jewish identity is Israeli; I believe in Jewish values a lot. And I can tell you a lot about it not now. I think most Americans don't even know like the She-che-anu people don't know what they're saying.
Interviewer: So was this point in your life when you went to look and see well, what is this She-che-anu, other than it being Hebrew words, what does it teach us or tell us about the religion.
Interviewee: Exactly.
Interviewer: But it was not about what to believe or what not to believe.
Interviewee: I'm not going to call it religion. Religion is really belief in God, and I want to tell you something very interesting. To me, God, that's how I think how I started in school. God, I don't care if there is or isn't. Whatever is said about God is really something that we have to emulate.
Interviewer: Okay.
Interviewee: [Speaking Hebrew]. If you provide food to people, like now my son and my daughter in law didn’t want a gift for their birthdays, they have enough money. They told me give a donation. And I told him he's very much a support of the Democrats; I am too. I don't believe that if I gave a hundred dollars for the Democratic Party, my husband does.
01:00:00
He says everybody gives a little; together, we can beat [01:00:00.04] I want to support poor people, but not only Jewish people, because the Jewish people get a lot of help from the community.
Interviewer: So do you see that as a Jewish value?
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewer: But it's also a socialist value?
Interviewee: So today, my Judaism is mostly values, I think of Judaism as a religion, but not a religion, it's like a whole culture. You cannot be, you know in Christianity, my daughter in law is not Jewish, she's Christian. She says I'm not a Christian; I'm an American woman.
A Christian has to be religious; a Jew does not need to be religious at all. And this is the beautiful thing; I think that I belong to a nation. I love the belonging; I love it, I can't tell you how I enjoy going to a synagogue, just because I see the people.
This is what I think I'm different from my husband in this respect; I don't know how he feels. I'm jealous of these people. I think they have an extra thing, just like people who love music. I think they have something extra in their life that we are missing. We cannot go, I will not go; I will not go because I don't want to go just in order to say that I went.
I don't enjoy it, maybe we will go to Temple Israel, I don't know. I was giving money to the synagogue; I felt very good about giving the money. I won't feel the same about Temple Israel because there are many rich people. You know what I mean?
Interviewer: So somehow it seems you blended the [Inaudible 01:01:33.08]
Interviewee: Sometimes it's the [Inaudible 01:01:34.23] and Judaism, I believe; now I know that not everybody will agree with it. I believe that Judaism is a totally socialistic religion.
Interviewer: That's what I'm hearing, the blending of the concern for others, the values, but without the restrictions, not restrictions without the rigid rules.
Interviewee: Very good. Now I say to people; I don't say now in now in my classes, I'll be very careful when I say it. I say that I could eat a pork and cheese on Yom Kippur and not feel a little guilt at all. But why am I saying that? Because I don't care at all about the ritual. Now I will defend the ritual, people that keep kosher, I know why they do it. The ritual is very important in America in order to keep Jews together.
That's the only benefit that I see. I think if Moses would come now, he would be completely shocked. He would say what I didn't even mean, I don't want to go into it. So I believe that Judaism, now I will say that I'm Jewish.
I teach them; my students will all swear to you that I'm more Jewish than anybody. It's so funny, my boss, Yehudah Issacs, who knows that I don't believe in God, he knows that I drive on Shabbat. He was telling me that I will end up in a Yeshiva.
I love to learn; I love to ….And Amos who is tired from his job, I was sure that he was going to study music or opera, we don't know a lot about a lot of things. You know what? He studies; he went to study the Bible.
So, I love Bible, so there are a lot of things in Israel I can't tell you; I want to go back to what we talked about.
Interviewer: Okay. I need to warn us that we're about an hour.
Interviewee: Let me tell you, the subject is not religion; it is Bible we studied. We studied the Bible, we studied the Prophets, we studied the Bible very well, and I loved it.
Interviewer: Yes. You saw all these as a study of the whole history and culture of the Jewish people.
Interviewee: Values, theory, and the values.
Interviewer: But here, you see it that it's a different kind of study, although it may be changing.
Interviewee: And I really sad that, and I think that we did study it in different indirect ways by studying literature. And if you read the stories of I. L. Peretz, all the folk stories, you know? There are a lot of values there, the Hasidic stories. Hasidism, all the ideas are beautiful without God.
01:05:00
Interviewer: Yes. Well, this has been a wonderful interview, just like I thought that it would be. I'm sorry that I think that at this point, there are things that I would like to ask you about. But I think that we maybe would do a follow-up interview.
The things that I would like to ask you about are the change in your feelings about the very ritualistic and Jews, and how did that happen? I didn't get to ask you about with your sons, how you sorted out what to do with them. So we don't have time, but I want to give you time if there's anything that you didn't get to say and you want to say, I'll give you a minute or so to do that.
Interviewee: The only minute that I want to tell you will do nothing, and I'm very sorry, but I cannot start at my age. I would like some Shabbat candles. I love to think to go to people that do, and that they sing all the songs.
I love the rituals; I love the rituals, not the kosher. I will never go to a lecture talking about what is kosher and what's not, I couldn't care less. I would go to a lecture that will talk about the meaning of culture. Do you understand?
Interviewer: Yes.
Interviewer: I think what I need to do now is take one of your courses, so we'll talk about that later. But I do want to thank you so much for sharing your life story. I've always been intrigued by you, and now you know it's wonderful.
Interviewee: I told you only a little bit.
Interviewer: I know, maybe we'll do another….. I also want to thank you because you're helping me and this collection to move to a new technology. This is the first interview that I have done remotely. So, thank you very much, it's a historical point.
01:09:40 End of interview
